Mizzen backstay

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2 months 1 week ago #3110 by Jim phillips
Mizzen backstay was created by Jim phillips
I know I'm hitting everyone up. Thanks for the great help. Our Whitby did not have the backstays attached, They were tied off to the Genoa track with 1/4 line. A real no go. Teds plans show two pad eyes on deck and we cannot find any, nor any sign of where they were. I made new chainplates, the issue is glassing the 1 1/2 plywood to the bulkhead is crazy hard through the small hatches, getting the angles correct in the process. if we go back to padeyes and turnbuckles a couple of questions.
1) We have the old pad eyes, is it safe to reuse them as they show a little rust and were hooked to rigging blocks? I have no way of knowing their working load?

2) If we go pad eyes, can we hook the new 3/8 pin turnbuckles directly to the pad eye or is there a device that is better suited at the connection? Seems like a very hard point of contact for the turnbuckle 3/8 pin to the curve of the pad eye?

3) If we use pad eyes, we found a set of huge aluminum angles 3/8 thick and 6 x 6 in the storage shed that came with the Whitby, we thought glass plywood to the hull, bolt the angle and use that as backing to transfer the load? Just worried putting backing plates on is not enough?

If we go with glassing in 1 1/2 Meranti to the bulkhead vs the pad eyes and putting in the chain plates I made, the hull bonding is the most critical? Correct.

As we found our boat hull to deck is riveted and will fix when we get back to Virginia on the hard. Way to much work at a dock south of Tallahassee. Add the 8000 miles of back and forth getting her ready.

Thanks
Jim and Lisa ( Lisa said get on the forum and ask the pros!)

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2 months 1 week ago - 2 months 1 week ago #3111 by John Bozeman
Replied by John Bozeman on topic Mizzen backstay
Those are running backs ,or some people call them check stays. You attach them to a traveling pad eye on the gunnel if you do not have very much room on the deck. I use mine only when I’m in heavy wind and the mizzensail is tight.
Always o
Loosen windward side,tighten the leeward side ,. Use a block ,running the line to a cleat or jam lest near the cockpit.
at least that is how Orca’s rigging is set up.
Someone else may have a different perspective.
Good luck ! If you need photos,I could send you some.
NOTICE
Correction
Windward....tight
Leeward...loose
Last edit: 2 months 1 week ago by John Bozeman. Reason: MISTAKE

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2 months 1 week ago #3112 by Scott Lee
Replied by Scott Lee on topic Mizzen backstay
Jim,

I concur with John regarding the usual setup being RUNNING backstays (Though I might debate with him which side to tighten/loosen;). No turnbuckles are needed. Ours have 4 part block and tackles with the working ends running to jam cleats in the cockpit just aft of the main winches. My padeyes are mounted on each side of the aft deck between the lazarette lockers and the stern cleats.

I suspect most, if not all, Whitbys originally were built without any backing plate at all on the padeyes. Adding a backing plate is a very good idea but your angle iron is over kill IMO. I would use 1/4 or 3/8" G10 or similar, cut slightly larger than the padeye itself. While you're in there, add backing plates on the cleats if not already equipped.

You may be over estimating the amount of force these backstays will see. I think having real chainplates there would be overkill but if I were going to go that route I would mount them to the outside of the hull, probably on the stern, rather than going through the deck (with an appropriate bend in the chainplate to match the angle of pull - much like the one on the bow for the main forward stay).

If you do go through the deck then yes, the knees must be securely bonded to the hull and deck at just the right angle.

Give us a shout when you get down to the Port Charlotte, FL area!

Scott
Joie de Vivre

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2 months 1 week ago #3113 by Jean Marcotte
Replied by Jean Marcotte on topic Mizzen backstay
Really like to see your arrangements. Could you provide a picture. Best regards.

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2 months 1 week ago #3114 by John Bozeman
Replied by John Bozeman on topic Mizzen backstay
SCOTT, you are correct, I was backwards on my direction of use.
Windward....tight
Leeward....loosen
Thanks for noticing. Great to have you and others to contribute to the forum..

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2 months 1 week ago #3115 by Scott Lee
Replied by Scott Lee on topic Mizzen backstay

happyskipper wrote: Really like to see your arrangements. Could you provide a picture. Best regards.

I wish I could! LOL! Right now I am redoing the deck on Joie de Vivre. The masts are down and all hardware is removed. Hope to get her back together by next winter.

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2 months 1 week ago #3116 by Scott Lee
Replied by Scott Lee on topic Mizzen backstay
I've been giving this some more thought and wanted to share a bit more detail on the mizzen rigging on the Whitbys... I'm no expert and this is just observation and conjecture on my part. Take it with a grain of salt...

There were, to my knowledge, two options for rigging the mizzen masts from the factory: WITH running back stays or WITHOUT running back stays. This applies to the Canadian built boats. I am curious if anyone can verify if the Ft Myers built boats had similar options?

The mizzen shrouds are arranged differently between the two options. In particular, on a boat with no running backs, the aft-most fixed shroud is secured further aft on deck than on boats with running backs.

I don't have any pictures of Joie de Vivre at the moment but I did find some pictures of other Whitbys from the 2009 rendezvous, etc. that may help. Apologies for the quality of the imagery.

Morning Light has running backs.
In this picture, from right to left:
1) mizzen running back stay (near the stern)
2) main mast back stay
3) mizzen lower aft
4) mizzen upper side
5) mizzen forward lower
6) mizzen forward upper
3 & 4 are immediately adjacent to each other as are 5 & 6
Notice that the aft-most fixed stay is the main mast back stay All mizzen fixed shrouds are forward of that.
This closely matches how Joie de Vivre is rigged.


Bye Polar does not have running backs
In this picture, from right to left:
1) mizzen lower aft
2) main mast back stay
3) mizzen upper side
4) mizzen forward upper
Notice here the aft-most fixed shroud is the mizzen lower aft. Further aft than the main mast back stay


Memory has running backs


Menehune does not have running backs


Scott
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The following user(s) said Thank You: Debi Shaimas

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2 months 1 week ago #3118 by Jim phillips
Replied by Jim phillips on topic Mizzen backstay
Thank you all, Teds plans showed chain plates and pad eyes on different sheets, and at different locations. We found pad eyes with the blocks (worn out) attached and could not figure out what the tackle did not have a cam cleat and by the photos our must have been like the photo with the sheet running forward.

I want the mizzen boom to reach overboard on port and starboard for a lifesling and retrieving our outboard, so pad eyes work great! I'm going to back them with some 3/4 white oak glassed.

I am going with the pad eyes and will post photos. Also I epoxied the raised cabin top where we are adding the traveller. I will post photos as soon as I get this done.

Were also adding a new Lewmar hatch to the bow cabin above the V berth this weekend as the origional is less than stellar and lacked a seal.

Will get that on video.

To all a huge thank you for your input and help. What a great resource!

Best, Jim and Lisa

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1 month 3 weeks ago #3131 by Jim phillips
Replied by Jim phillips on topic Mizzen backstay
I added backing plate to the pad eyes and everything is wrapped up. You were right, the cleats don't have backing plates and I will rectify that.

Thank you so much for the help, love this website.

Jim

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1 month 3 weeks ago #3132 by Jim phillips
Replied by Jim phillips on topic Mizzen backstay
Will do, when we get back to her I will take photos. I made a white oak backing plates 1 x 4 x 10 epoxied them, overdrilled the holes and epoxied the hole down to size and then put 3/8 shackle with extenders and turnbuckle on each side. The core on the stern and on the rear cabin top was dry.

I have a dremel bit that I use to router out the core, epoxy and then drill my holes. I have done some serious rotten core repair on boats and never want that to happen to our Whitby. Last the core seemed to be marine PLY and not balsa and was solid as new.

I have to get a Loos tension gauge for our rigging as it is all new and the prior owner said he just tightened it by hand without any regard for tension until he was ready to sail.

Jim

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