Rudder Removal - W42

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4 years 10 months ago #2085 by Debi Shaimas
Rudder Removal - W42 was created by Debi Shaimas
HELP!
We are hull #110 Whitby 42, built in Canada.
We are in a small port in Columbia which does NOT have haul out facilities, a crane, or marine supplies.
The top portion of our rudder tube has broken.

QUESTION: Can someone describe the steps needed to remove the rudder.

We need to decide:
1. Can rudder be removed while boat is still in the water (assuming we can plug the shaft hole).
2. We might be able to lay alongside a stone pier. Tides are 12+ feet here. That said, we would have to work quickly when the tide is out.

So, if we have an idea of how to approach the removal we can try to use our time more efficiently.

Any help greatly appreciated.

THANK YOU!

Debi S
Serenity
Currently: Tumaco, Columbia

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4 years 10 months ago #2086 by Dave Kuchenbecker
Replied by Dave Kuchenbecker on topic Rudder Removal - W42
Two years ago Allegria had their shaft break while in the ragged islands. They got towed by a super nice trawler to Georgetown, Exumas and proceeded to pull the shaft while in the water, and then some time later install the new shaft. I had the pleasure of meeting them shortly afterwards and had a real epiphany, This can be done. They are long time cruisers and very obviously very comfortable with these kind of challenges. I think the presented at the 2014 Whitby Rendesvous. This is one of those tthings that is easier to talk about then do. Good luck, have a plan and a couple of back-up bilge pumps.

I took a lot of pictures of Pilgrims rudder after it was opened up and prepped for welding of the new supports. It was on the hard so a completely diffenert degree of difficulty. I will be happy to send you some of them if interested.


Sort of like how the naval acadamy cadets have to change the knotmeter sending unit while undersail at night on their trip to Norfolk. Its part of the test. I kow because one of my college buddies was a sailing instructer there, as was his wife.

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4 years 10 months ago #2087 by Scott Lee
Replied by Scott Lee on topic Rudder Removal - W42
Hmmm. Hope others chime in, I'm no expert. But here goes...

1) To remove the rudder you first need to remove the prop and shaft. The rudder slides downward about a foot to get the top of the rudder shaft out the tube. The rudder shoe at the base of the rudder holds the rudder up into the tube. Remove that shoe and the rudder should slide out. Can it be done in the water? I would think so. There was a very interesting presentation last year at the rendezvous about Allegria replacing the prop shaft while in the water. The top of the rudder tube is probably above the water line so you should have no problem there. One question I have - I don't know if the rudder is buoyant? If so you will need to figure a way to weight the rudder enough to sink it below the tube. It's a lot of underwater work so a Hooka type system or scuba gear will be required.

2) might work - you will need a hole under the rudder for it to slide down to get the top of the shaft out the tube. Might be able to get most of the work done (removing prop and shaft, loosening rudder shoe) while dried out then drop the rudder while afloat.

Once the rudder is out, are there facilities there to get it fixed?

How far to better facilities? Can a temporary steering system be rigged to get you to a full service yard?

Scott
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4 years 10 months ago #2088 by Dave Kuchenbecker
Replied by Dave Kuchenbecker on topic Rudder Removal - W42
I guess I should have been more specific, Allegria broke their Prop shaft. As a point of interest to anyone with the lehman, and the borg Warner trans. On Allegia and Dream Ketcher, we both had motor mount bolts into the trans shear off. In our case the trans dropped and stressed the sghaft and bent it approx . 0.012 at the mid point. I have now added to my prefligt check all of the motor mount bolts and engine mounts bolts.
.

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4 years 10 months ago #2089 by Gerry O'Donoghue
Replied by Gerry O'Donoghue on topic Rudder Removal - W42
Yes, you can remove the rudder, especially if you can lay alongside a tidal grid.

As Scott says, you have to remove the prop. I think you may get away with not removing the shaft.

1. When the boat dries out clean of all the paint on the bronze shoe attaching the base of the rudder to the keel. Remove the bronze bolts and bang the shoe off.

2. Move up 14 inches and clean paint again. Locate the bolts on the gudgeon. This is in two parts holding the rudder shaft in place. Knock them off.

3. Having previously removed the packing gland from the rudder shaft inside the aft cabin, the rudder should then drop down.

4. The play you will have should prevent the shaft getting in the way off the rudder dropping down.

5. You may have to wait for the boat to lift on the tide to have the shaft drop all the way clear of the stern. I would drill the rudder and attach a safety line. It may float but I'm not sure. I would be curious to find out.

6. Before you dry out lighten the stern of the boat and load the bow. This will keep the rudder shaft clear of the water.

Sounds like a fun exercise. Please document and post. Drop me an e-mail if anything is not clear. (whitby42@gmail.com).

Gerry
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4 years 10 months ago - 4 years 10 months ago #2090 by Edward Watson
Replied by Edward Watson on topic Rudder Removal - W42
Removing the the wheel will make things easier. You may not have to remove the shaft (depending on how long the taper is).
The Shoe that holds the bottom of the rudder needs to be removed. It is held on by through bolts, through the bottom of the keel. These bolts may have been filled and faired to match the hull and you may have to dig out the putty to remove them. Make sure the quadrant and packing gland are off, and that the rudder IS Tied off - the shoe holds the weight of the rudder (if the boat is hauled or in the water.)
The same with the Bolts holding the gudgeon half way down. Mostly the filler is bondo or something soft and it is easily chipped out.
The rudder will need at least 18 inches of space under the keel to drop out easily. (if the boat is hauled, dig a hold to drop the rudder in.)

In the note you say 'tube'. The boat would have to be hauled to replace the tube that the Rudder shaft rides in. So we are assuming that you meant to say 'shaft'.

The keel sections and 'deadwood' of the Whitbys are solid FRP, so replacing the bolts in the shoe and gudgeon under water will not be a problem on a temporary fix.
While it can be done with the boat in the water, it may be easier to take the boat to where it can be hauled. Good Luck.

Edit: Scott has pictures
Last edit: 4 years 10 months ago by Edward Watson. Reason: Scott has pictures.
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4 years 10 months ago #2091 by Scott Lee
Replied by Scott Lee on topic Rudder Removal - W42

snoozer wrote: Scott has pictures


Snoozer, are you referring to the pics of your boat In the photo gallery?

whitbybrewersailboats.com/photo-gallery/new-hope

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4 years 10 months ago #2092 by Edward Watson
Replied by Edward Watson on topic Rudder Removal - W42
UH, No.

As I was typing, a post came in with pictures. I thought it was Scott, but I see it was Gerry (it was late). That is to what I was referring.

But there are pictures of the New Hope's rudder in the gallery.

If I can answer any questions, I will be glad to.

I have a SS plate rudder on New Hope, it works fine. But there are purists that think it is a abomination.

snooz

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4 years 10 months ago #2093 by Debi Shaimas
Replied by Debi Shaimas on topic Rudder Removal - W42
Thank you all for your assistance with this. Given the tidal range, we may only have an hour or so of actual work to get the rudder off, so being able to get to it right away without spending a lot of time scratching our heads will be of great benefit.

As to the actual rudder repair:

1. Am I right to assume that we will need to locate marine grade bronze stock (round, solid, 1/2" diameter), have the key hole machined in and then weld that on to the top of the rudder where it has broken?

2. Was the original construction a long piece of bronze that went into the rudder?

3. If we are doing a weld job now (AND/OR if the bronze stock available to us is NOT marine grade), can we expect this repair to last say 10-12 months until we can get ourselves to a proper yard with proper facilities? And would the "proper" repair be to open up the rudder and insert one long piece of bronze?

4. If a material like bondo is NOT available what can we use to bed the bolts? I am not even sure we can get our hands on proper bottom paint. If not, what would you put over the boot and gudgeon to protect then, or would you leave them exposed to the water?

We are in a port and we are at anchor close to a navy base. BUT, this is not a "marine" location at all. No marine supplies available. Haven't even seen a hardware store. Closest port with repair facilities would be several hundred miles away, in Ecuador. I suspect this "navy base" was financed by U.S.A. with the purpose of controlling drug traffickers (to the extend that is possible). The fleet here is mostly small high powered boats -- several of which don't run at all. On the base itself is a shed with 200+ Yamaha outboards that they tell us were confiscated from traffickers and several of the "narco submarines" one reads about in the papers.

Thanks again. Will document and post as we progress. Still need to get permission from the Navy to lay aside their wharf. And tides won't be in our favor until next week. In the meantime, we plan, ponder and fret.

Debi
Serenity, Hull #110
Tumaco, Columbia

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4 years 10 months ago - 4 years 10 months ago #2094 by Gerry O'Donoghue
Replied by Gerry O'Donoghue on topic Rudder Removal - W42
OK. It is becoming a little clearer. It sounds like your rudder shaft has broken and the tiller arm no longer turns the rudder. Is this correct?

In that case you need to remove the rudder as previously discussed. Then take it to a machine shop and have them bolt/braise a reinforcing gusset to join the rudder shaft over the break. Don't even think about replacing the complete shaft. You only want to reinforce the shaft where it was thinned out in order to bend around the curve.

You don't have to remove all of the fiberglass/foam, just try and locate where the break is. This is a known issue with rudders that were enlarged.





Don't worry about covering the bolts. Just goop anything over them and it will last until your next haul.
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Last edit: 4 years 10 months ago by Gerry O'Donoghue.
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4 years 10 months ago #2095 by Gerry O'Donoghue
Replied by Gerry O'Donoghue on topic Rudder Removal - W42
Possible location of break;


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4 years 10 months ago - 4 years 10 months ago #2096 by Gerry O'Donoghue
Replied by Gerry O'Donoghue on topic Rudder Removal - W42
Reinforced rudder stock from Russ and Lisa’s W42 LUNA.



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Last edit: 4 years 10 months ago by Gerry O'Donoghue.
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4 years 10 months ago #2097 by Edward Watson
Replied by Edward Watson on topic Rudder Removal - W42
1. Without a good description (pictures) of what is broken; the rudder shaft, the tube, the quardrent, it is hard to say exactly what you will need.

2. Original construction was: The Bronze shaft goes into the rudder and is anchored there by filler inside the rudder (the red line on the picture above (posted by Gerry)). Depending where the shaft has broken (at the top, in the rudder, in the tube) the repair will be different.

3. The proper repair would be to replace the shaft entirely (if that is what has broken). You can use bronze or stainless steel. Bronze will be trickier to weld and have it hold at sea. Stainless will be better if you have to weld it. Bronze IS marine grade metal, do not use Brass, which can look the same. Bronze is not used much in new construction anymore, but you could find a piece of shaft in a wrecked boat, or scrap yard.
Any Stainless will do in a pinch and should be easier to get around a Naval yard. I think the size should be 1 1/2 inch. This is used as shafting for many things, pumps, motors, axles, it should be easier to find and easier to get welded. There should be plenty of expeirenced metal workers around a Navy base.

4.The easy question, no bondo is needed. you do not have to bed the gudgeon or shoe bolts. They will be fine exposed to water.The gudgeon and shoe are both Bronze and were usually installed with bronze bolts. If you use stainless bolts with the repair, there may be some problems develop over time with the dis-simllar metals.


Note: does the shaft rotate inside the rudder? Or has the quadrent that turns the rudder broken? Is the shaft leaking? From your description it is hard to tell just where the break is, and so it is hard to give specific advice.

There have been several quadrents on Whitbys break in the last few years. These are a much easier repair.
Snoozerone@gmail.com

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4 years 10 months ago #2098 by Robert Strickland
Replied by Robert Strickland on topic Rudder Removal - W42
Hi Debbie,
We dropped our rudder a couple of years ago and all the comments so far fit our experience.
I used an impact wrench to free the bolts at the base of the rudder and at the gudgeon.
You will need to drop the rudder a few feet to get it out, but it depends on where the break is.
If the break is inside the rudder you will have to open it up. When I did ours I used a grinder and split the rudder similar to the picture Gerry sent. The inside was filled with Cabosil. When we did ours I wanted to insert a gusset at the bend in the shaft, but the welder said the whole shaft would need to come out of the rudder because he was afraid of melting it. After all that, since everything looked good inside, I decided to not do it and just put it all back together.
If your break is above the rudder it may be able to be welded without going through all that. If it is inside then it is a big job.
I might suggest rigging a line to the rudder on either side to use as a jury rig and try to get somewhere better to work on it.
Dee
Allegria
#199
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4 years 10 months ago #2099 by Debi Shaimas
Replied by Debi Shaimas on topic Rudder Removal - W42
THANK YOU ALL.
We were able to remove the rudder while in the water today. The break is at the top of the rudder. No need to remove either the prop or the boot. Once released from the gudgeon, the rudder only needed to be lifted off the boot because the break is at the top of the rudder. (By the way: the rudder DID NOT float.)

Clearly corrosive action, mostly up inside the stern tube so not visible to us when we hauled out. Or maybe it would have been had we looked for it specifically? Rudder post is 1.5" diameter. Where it actually broke was probably only 1/2" diamerter. Will post pictures when this is all said and done.

At any rate, the bronze is coming apart in flakes. Almost like a cylindrical onion with someone peeling the layers off one by one.

We have located a ship builder who feels that, given the condition of the bronze, it really is best to replace that entire section. He also recommends we do it in SS since we cannot be guaranteed the quality of bronze available to us down here.

The pictures of the interior workings are invaluable to us at this point. I will take them to him tomorrow.

For now, we have left the rudder post that was in the stern tube in place. We have had a 2 foot section of 1.5" diameter SS made and will try to fit that in place while removing the broken piece. We have taken everything we can think of to the bow of the boat to lift the stern.

Thank you all again so very much! Don't think we could have gotten this far without you all.

Debi
Serenity #110
Tumaco, Columbia

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3 years 6 months ago #2482 by Duncan Woodhead
Replied by Duncan Woodhead on topic Rudder Removal - W42
Hi From Maggie Drum
I think we have a worn rudder shaft in the area of the stuffing box my question is if i remove the rudder Can i get that shaft built up again or do i need to replace the whole shaft We plan to haulout in Curacao next March and leave MD on the hard for 10 mths
Duncan

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3 years 6 months ago - 3 years 6 months ago #2483 by Gerry O'Donoghue
Replied by Gerry O'Donoghue on topic Rudder Removal - W42
Duncan

I have no experience with this product but it looks interesting. A quick e-mail to Loctite would provide the correct answer.

Fixmaster Metal Rebuilding - Shaft Repair


Gerry
Last edit: 3 years 6 months ago by Gerry O'Donoghue.

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