Ocean Dove needs a New Wind Engine Opinions Please

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9 years 6 months ago #655 by Derek Keeping
Ocean Dove needs a New Wind Engine

After re-engine Ocean Dove last year I am looking in the near future to replace her worn out sails.
Ocean Dove is a "Twin Head Sail Ketch", Hull #328 built in 1986 with optional Bowsprit removable inner fore stay for Jib staysail
At present she has:
130% Genoa that was recut from the original 150% genoa on a Harken MkIII furling system.
Jib staysail is original with no furling system.
Main Sail is on a Facnor, Roller furling (on/in the mast) system,
Mizzen is original with a loose foot.
The spinnaker and staysail are original and in very good condition.

I have had issues with the Facnor main furling system. The Facnor system has an Aluminum extrusion bolted to the aft side of mast that the sail rolls into.
This fall on the way to the winter berth the main sail jam half way out as I was unfurling it. I did get the main sail to furl back into the mast and that is where it is staying for the winter. Next spring after launch I will go up the mast on a windless day and try to unfurl the main sail.

I have a wish list for sails:
New 135% Genoa foam luff, 8 oz Dacron.
New furling Jib staysail foam Luff 8 oz Dacron
New cross cut loose foot main sail. 2 reefs, 2 full +2 short batons, Tides Track system and a stack pack lazy jack system.
New mizzen sail 2 reefs, 2 full +2 short batons, Tides Track system and a stack pack lazy jack system.

Before I start pouring money into sails I would like some opinions from other Whitby owners, on what works for them, what didn’t, what they would in my position.
So to all give me our advice I am all ears.

Regards
Derek and Darlene
Ocean Dove

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9 years 6 months ago #656 by Scott Lee
The answers to these questions are as unique as each of our boats. But here is what we came up with when we went through this a year ago.

We found, after a year of cruising, we were not using the sails as much as we would like and we did not like the control we had when we did sail. The rig was a pain to use and not easily adjusted so we needed to make some changes. We also had quite a bit of weather helm that we wanted to address.

We did not have a staysail or a bowsprit so we added a staysail (pro-furl), but elected to wait on the bowsprit. We added a self-tacking track for the staysail. We added a roller furling boom (schaefer) and electric winch in the cockpit and led all lines to the cockpit. We added a Mack Pack lazy Jack system to the mizzen.

After using the new rig for almost a year, here is what we think:

What worked:
1) The roller furling, self tacking staysail is awesome! Easy to unfurl, furl, adjust, etc, it is usually our first sail out and the last one to be put up.
2) the furling main on the elctric winch is easy up, easy down, and reefing is a breeze. Plus, in-boom furling allows us to still drop the sail even if the furler were to jam, which it never has.
3) the cabin-top mounted electric winch is a treat. It was required for the schaefer roller furling main but the mainsail and staysail sheets are also led to it. Going up the main mast used to be a risky, labor-intensive process but is now closer to an elevator ride at the push of a button. We can also cross the mizzen halyard to it for going up that mast. We can also cross
-sheet the genoa sheet to it for unfurling.
4) lines led to cockpit. VERY nice to be able to raise/lower sails from the safety and comfort of the cockpit.

What didn't work:
1) the Mack Pak on the mizzen is an improvement, but not nearly as easy as the other sails. Battens get caught on the lines on the way up and I still need to be on deck to pull it down.
2) weather helm is improved but still not where it should be.

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9 years 6 months ago #657 by Gerry O'Donoghue
Replied by Gerry O'Donoghue on topic Re:Ocean Dove needs a New Wind Engine Opinions Please
My limited experience suggests the following;

1. Get all your price quotes, local and offshore lofts.

2. Negotiate with you local loft. I ended up getting a sail from an online dealer (8years ago) through the local loft who then fitted and guaranteed the sail at no extra cost to me.

3. The quality of the Dacron sailcloth is critical. I believe there is a lot of variety out there.

4. 130% genoa is plenty big enough, I may go with 110% but it will be a Yankee (high cut clew). I will rely on the Cruising chute/code zero for light airs.

5. Tides track is the way to go. Also check out the Dutchman track system;

mvbinfo.com/track-lh-tsbrochure.php

6. I put a stack pack on my last boat and it was great. Check out Mack Pack.

Have Fun
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9 years 6 months ago #658 by Randy Robinson
Replied by Randy Robinson on topic Re:Ocean Dove needs a New Wind Engine Opinions Please
We have to start out like Gerry...our limited experience suggests the following:
We've only sailed Sinbad for one summer on Lake Huron/Lake Michigan. Sinbad is hull #132 made in 1979 with no bowsprit. The first thing we did was change the original roller furling on the bow from a Hood to a Schaefer 3100. Our sail inventory was a 30yr old 150 genoa, main and mizzen. We believe the previous owner often sailed her like a sloop because the mizzen was in decent condition. We also have a 100 high cut jib,crusing chute and mizzen stay sail which appear to be almost brand new. Our goal was to make it through the season and buy new sails this winter. Half way through the season we retired the 150 genny (it blew out twice and had patches over patches) and bent on the 100 jib. It worked well but is too small for general purposes. The weather helm that many Whitby owners talk about we haven't found to be a problem as yet. We experienced at least six 10hr days with the wind piping between 22 and 30 knots and by balancing the boat with the mizzen and keeping the hull speed below 8 knots weather helm was not a issue.
So we ordered (and just received) new sails from Bacon Sails in Annapolis, who honored the Whitby-Brewer Association with a discount. We went with a 130 jib with a moderaste cut clew, new main and mizzen. All three sails are made of 8.4 oz contender supercruise premium high modulus Dacron. We can't wait to test them out when we cut the docklines in August.

Note- Garry Chwazik at Bacon Sails, and all the staff we dealt with, were easy-going, friendly, courteous, and extremely knowledgeable. It was a pleasure doing business with them. With the caveat, of course, that we haven't had the sails out of the bag yet!! ;)

We hope you will find this a little helpful.

all the best, Randy and Diane
S/V Sinbad

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9 years 6 months ago #659 by Larry Donaldson
Replied by Larry Donaldson on topic Re:Ocean Dove needs a New Wind Engine Opinions Please
Derek and Darlene,

Just some thoughts on your question of sails from up here in Georgian Bay, suffering from the winter cold and thoughts of summers sailing. Every owner will have different plans for their boat and these will affect the sail plan. We plan to get back into the south is a few years so I am looking for a sail-plan for passage making. Star Shadow is hull #333 and is rigged as a cutter-ketch. The spars are Isomat and are set up without running back-stays like most of the later built boats.
We have gone with a 110% genoa, high cut clew, for the head-sail as it is a manageable size when the wind picks up and can be furled easily if we are getting out of control. Bacon built this sail for us in 2008 and it has been fine, one note is to watch the height of the clew when getting a high-cut as we find it difficult to take up on the leach line when the sail is set.
For the Stay-sail I have gone with a heavy cut 100% working cut for heavy weather work. I have left it hanked on so it can be removed when working upwind, thus making tacking the head-sail easier. I have toyed with the idea of a track for a self-tacking option on the stay-sail but feel that it would interfere with deck storage of the dingy when we are on offshore passages. So when trimming the stay-sail I barber-haul the foot of the sail to windward if required.
For the main I will end up having a new main cut with a shorter leach as the boom end will be higher when I install a main-sheet track an arch being manufactured for the cockpit aft. The traveler tackle will necessitate the raising of the boom. I like Gerry’s idea for a tracked luff on the main and had a look at the Dutchman system and will compare it further with the Harken Batt-car
system.
Our mizzen was built by Bacon’s and is a “power head”, big roached sail, two full battens up and two short battens on the lower portion. As we don’t have the running backs it has enabled us to power up the sail as we use it a lot.
For reaching I plan to get a large reaching sail tacked to a small sprit mounted below and extending forward from the existing bow-sprit. I will likely go with a snuffer for control though I have been looking at the continuous line furlers built by pro-furl and others.
I hope this gives you some further things to think about.

Regards,

Larry and Janet,
S/V Star Shadow
Whitby 42, #333
Penetanguishene, Ontario

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9 years 6 months ago #660 by Derek Keeping
Replied by Derek Keeping on topic Re:Ocean Dove needs a New Wind Engine Opinions Please
Thanks to all
I have had input from other forums and sail makers also. Ocean Dove hull #328 has the same Isomat spars as Star Shadow.
We would like to limit the time out of the cockpit to handle the sail so that is why I am looking at the furling stay sail, single line reefing, stack packs and The Tides Marine Track and Slide System www.tidesmarine.com/sail-track.shtml . Ocean Dove as all her control and furling line lead back to the cockpit through rope clutches to two winches mounted in the cabin port and stbd. there is room for three more lines. The winches on the cabin top will be converted to ST winches as summer. The primary winches are Lewar ST 55 and the secondary are ST46 so even Darlene can handle the sails.
The Genoa cut and size are still up for debate. Miter or cross cut? Foam luff on not? 110,120 135%?
The Stay sail will be 100% No foam full. Miter or cross cut?
The furling system for the stay sail is still a question mark. The Genoa is Harken Mk III but there are many good system out there for less $.
The Mizzen will have 1 reef, but there is a question on 4 full battens or 2 full+2 regular battens?
I have the same question about the main sail and battens.

We are re-fitting Ocean Dove for a trip south 2013/14 but still sail her during the summer. Last winter the main engine was replaced, this winter a new generator, all work to date has been complete by myself. Next winter sails and rigging, I do know my limits and will call in a pro rigger to assist with the rigging inspection and addition new furling system for the stay sail both masts will be pulled for rigging inspection mods as needed the fall of 2011. The time frame for the new sails would be delivery the spring of 2012.
Once again thanks for your input.

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9 years 6 months ago #661 by Gerry O'Donoghue
Replied by Gerry O'Donoghue on topic Re:Ocean Dove needs a New Wind Engine Opinions Please
Check out this months Cruising World for an article about self tacking genoa's.


Larry and Janet, I would love to hear more about the "Short Sprit" AND the

"a main-sheet track an arch being manufactured for the cockpit aft" ????

Thanks

Gerry

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