Whitby 42 Brewer Sail Boats

Hi,

I know a few of you have the Saye's Rig mechanical steering autopilot.
I have been communicating with Ron Geick at Scanmar in CA.
Concerns over the need for hydraulic bypass and shorten the Mizzen boom have me slightly puzzled. Does anyone have any further comments? photos? Advice?
If you had to do it over, would you get an Auto-Helm?

The Auto-Helm could be mounted on top of my horizon beam on my davits?

Brian on Pilgrims passage has a Saye's Rig www.pilgrimspassages.com/

Rita T, hull 172, 1981, is outfitted with a Sayes Rig Patrick Cornelius O’Donnell and Hannah Gardner

Howard on FARHORIZON

Roy B. S/V Serenade Hull #45

Steve and Janet on Lunacy Hull #230 were going to install?


The Saye's Rig is a hybrid servopendulum system - see the attached mounting drawing. The airvane is rotated about its vertical axis so the airvane sail points into the apparent wind (in the drawing the wind is dead aft). When the boat falls off course the sail is pushed to one side, turning the paddle in the water. The force of the water on the paddle pushes it off to one side, moving the tiller arm that's bolted to the boat's rudder, bringing the boat back on course. If the boat has hydraulic steering a bypass valve has to be fitted around the steering ram, close to it to eliminate back pressure.The airvane mast as shown in the drawing could be shortened to sit under the mizzen boom but the aft railing would have to be removed - remember that the sail has to be able to rotate 360 degrees. Davits could still be a problem, depending on their design - if they foul the airvane swing, it will not work.
The Auto-helm steers with its own rudder, that's bolted to the boat's transom. The boat's own rudder is usually locked on boat centerline. The airvane is pointed into the apparent wind and when the boat falls off course its movement turns a trimtab on the auxiliary rudder, moving the rudder to the opposite side & bringing the boat back on course. The airvane mast (see attached drawing) can be mounted anywhere convenient on the stern, and as noted on the drawing, its mast can be cut down to 24" high. The mast base could be set up just forward of the aft railing or on a boomkin extension aft of the rail and/or the aft railing could be removed to facilitate airvane swing. You can take off measurements from these drawings & see which would be preferable to install on your boat - the Auto-helm and the Saye's Rig would both work, but given the davits with a crossbar, aft railing and overhanging mizzen boom either one would need some modifications done to the boat.

Thanks,

Patrick Cornelius Gaia #332 with davits and long Mizzen boom

Patrick and all those that are thinking of wind vane steering system I would just like to make some points on this thread. The use of wind vanes is mainly for long distance passages, when the boat can remain on the same course relative to the wind. As we all know, the Whitby is not the best boat to sail on a close hauled course for long periods of time and we also know that this is not the most comfortable point of sail on a long passage. Most of our long passages will be off the wind, beam reach to a run. This is where those wind vane systems excel. Rigs such as the Sayes and the Monitor operate using a "sail" to sense wind direction and transfer any changes or course deviation into a rudder to correct the course relative to the wind. If you think about it, on any course other than an extreme close hauled course the mizzen boom is not any where near centerline and therfor is not interferring with the "sail" of the wind vane. Thus there is no need to create work and shorten the mizzen boom, it will never be in the way. This was confirmed by Steve and Marg on Lion's Paw when, in Annopolis, they spoke directly to the Monitor people on this issue. My point is don't make work and incur expences by shortening a boom that will not interfer with these systems. I am of the school that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Larry Donaldson
S/V Star Shadow
Whitby 42 #333

Larry and Patrick

As you know the Mizzen boom will not be a problem for me as I will not have one. One option, however, that you should consider is the use of a simple tiller pilot in conjunction with the wind vane.

Automate the wind vane



I used this system on my last boat and it worked very well. I had a remote control in the cockpit and could use the wind vane in harbor / while motoring / no wind condition etc. I almost never fitted the wind sail. I had three tiller pilots on-board, two of which I picked up second hand.

I do not plan to have a below decks autopilot on-board Simbi, and will invest the money in a wind vane instead.

I believe that Pilgrims wind vane is an Auto-Helm.

Best Regards

Gerry

Interestingly enough 'Free N Clear' #70 had its transom reinforced during commissioning to accommodate a RVG windvane, which is VERY similar to the Auto-Helm that Scanmar sells. This method of steering was used by the original owners to take the boat to the Med and back. Once the Haupt's (original owners) returned they had the RVG rudder/system removed to avoid catching crab pots and to facilitate ease of steering in close coastal quarters.

On my 'wish list' is a Saye's Rig which would eliminate both issues of crab pots and close quarters maneuverability with its easily removable trim-tab which attaches to the boat's existing rudder. http://www.selfsteer.com/products/sayes/index.php

Comments regarding the "auto-helm". I think they use small letters to
avoid confusion with a well known auto pilot system which many of us
also use.
We purchased a unit from the manufacturer before we set off in 2005 for
Lake Superior and prior to our current adventure. We had looked at the
Saye's Rig but felt the independent rudder/trim tab system to provide
extra insurance in case we lost the main rudder.

On the plus side:

- The unit is well built and the instructions are complete and accurate.
- The mounting tubes can be used as a boarding ladder.
- The unit was installed without too much difficulty however vertical
alignment is difficult with the slight port heel of the Whitby.
- The unit can be used with a tiller pilot instead of the wind vane and
thus can be tied into the Sea Talk system or equivalent.
- It worked when we lost our hydraulic system while crossing the Atlantic
- No boom modifications were required and we use davits for our dink.
You need to be careful when tacking/Gybing if the windvane is vertical.

On the negative side:

- Some of the required holes were not drilled into 3 of the stock elbows
which are not modified during installation. Caused excessive mount
movement which lead to noise and tracking problems.
- The fiberglass shell on the leading edge of the rudder is showing
signs of stress cracking. I'll be adding a few layers of glass in the
spring to repair it.
- You need to use lines to lock the auto-helm rudder in place when not
in use otherwise your steering will be impacted as well as the ability
to reverse (but who would ever notice on a Whitby). The trim tab is
locked when you lock the wind vane in place. That leads to breakage of
the control wires that connect the wind vane to the trim tab.
- The rudder/trim tab are VERY active when dockside with any waves or in
a wind against current anchorage. The noise can keep you awake if you
use the aft bunk.
- The rudder/trim tab can't be removed quickly and is a problem to store
once removed. Most other auto helms allow removal to reduce drag and
prevent damage.
- The rudder seems to be too small to effectively steer the boat unless
you have PERFECT sail trim. Downwind is a joke with 40 degrees of yaw
...try that a night in a following sea.

We met with the manufacturer at the Annapolis boat show in 2006 to
complain and were basically told that's the way it works. In fact they
denied shipping the undrilled parts. Interestingly they had exactly the
same parts without the drill holes on display. When I pointed that out
they just shrugged. So ... would I recommend it? Let's put it this way
if anyone wants to buy mine it is available.

We like the Auto Helm 6000+ and use it whenever we can afford the power.
Maybe I should look at cable steering and install a real windvane.

All the best
Brian

Brian,

Outstanding report.

Thank You

Gerry


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